News

Apple and France Sometimes Sound Alike

There was a time when Steve Jobs said something that sounds similar to the message coming out of France today, but his meaning was far different. In March 2002, Mr. Jobs said "If you legally acquire music, you need to have the right to manage it on all other devices that you own." Songbirdnest points out that Martin Rogard, an adviser at the French Culture Ministry, recently said "The consumer must be able to listen to the music they have bought on no matter what platform."

The two quotes sound strikingly similar, but there was one vital piece missing in 2002: The iTunes Music Store (iTMS). Mr. Jobs quote was in response to questions about copying CDs to your Mac and an iPod. The iTMS was still several months away, and recording labels were criticizing Apple for its "Rip, Mix, Burn" marketing campaign.

In contrast, France is looking to open competing digital rights management technologies, which would allow music purchased from the iTMS to play on any digital music device. Apple is calling that "state sanctioned piracy."

Apple agreed to include digital rights management (DRM) technology in songs purchased from the iTMS so that the recording labels would feel comfortable selling their music through Apple's service. Apple's FairPlay DRM scheme lets you burn multiple copies of a song track, play the song on several computers, and copy songs to an iPod. No other portable digital music players use FairPlay technology, limiting the copy protected songs to Apple's music player.

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Bosco said:

member since 03 Jun 2002 with 1001 posts, unranked, send him a message or view his profile

This is the smoking gun that proves that global warming is real and serious. I mean, that Lee Harvey Oswald was part of a wider conspiracy. No, that's not it... That the inventors of Pop Rocks knew that combining them with soda would cause explosions in people's mouths. I know... that George Bush planned 9/11 and is covering it up by having that pillar of intellect Charlie Sheen outline the whole thing so as to cast doubt on his involvement.

The irony here would be so thick you could cut it with a nickel. Except that is not what the French guy said. For one, he would never have said it in English.

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A guest said: (hide)

Bosco,

LOL! Great response!

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Bryan said:

member since 11 Jun 2001 with 7340 posts, TMO Staff, send him a message or view his profile

Hmmmm...It's the Financial Times of London that originally reported the quote, attributing it to "Martin Rogard, an adviser at the French Culture Ministry," just as we wrote it. I am not sure why you think French folks and their advisors (be they French or non-French) aren't allowed to speak English, or to have their quotes translated into English.

As for a conspiracy issue, I think the important thing to take here is inconsistency on the part of Apple and CEO Steve Jobs. At one point, Mr. Jobs said one must be able to take one's legally purchased music anywhere one wants. Today, now that the iPod and iTunes have been built in part by prohibiting that same flexibility (with what is arguably the least restrictive DRM scheme on the market), Mr. Jobs and Apple are singing a different tune.

Pardon the pun.

Bryan

Editor

ipo

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A guest said: (hide)

Bryan,

1. CDs did not have DRM. There's no going back - the train has left the station. Thus, Jobs' comment.

2. In order to have digital stores, the labels (and studios) insist on DRM. (My belief: It would be better if there was no DRM, but I understand the labels attempt. All in all, DRM is a bad solution to the problem of piracy.) But still no DRM, no digital media stores. The content owners have spoken. The contracts are written whereby Apple is legally liable if the DRM is broken on the songs it sells (and same for all the other stores except those that sell non-DRMed music like emusic.)

3. If there is no DRM, thus no digital music stores, piracy will increase. (Apple's assertion but likely true.)

4. If using digital music stores becomes non-aligned with user's expectations, then users will use other means, such as piracy, to acquire music for their players. This can happen if the song price is too high, if DRM is too restrictive, or if the playback tools become too complicated (i.e., no longer just works.) To date, Apple believes iTMS,in tandem with iTunes and the iPods, provides a good compromise and people are buying. On the other hand, Apple believes that the other music stores, mainly WMA, have not provided a convenient, just works solution, even as they provide megachoice in stores and jukeboxes and players. That's because the DRMed WMA songs have varying restrictions and prices, players don't always work with jukeboxes, and jukeboxes don't always work with stores, and oftentimes the issue is the DRM.

5. If this law passes, then these three things could happen (not sure since law not clear):

a. Other jukeboxes/players will play Fairplay-DRMed songs. These songs will have different restrictions from WMA songs, and may not always work with jukeboxes or players (unless Apple invests resources to make it work).

b. Other stores will sell Fairplay-DRMed songs. These songs may have different restrictions from iTMS Fairplay-DRMed songs, and may not always work with iPods and iTunes (unless Apple invests resources to make it work).

c. Other jukeboxes/players will translate Fairplay-DRMed songs into other-type-of-DRMed songs. These songs may not always work with jukeboxes or players.

6. So good, you say, the other players/jukeboxes will continue to have trouble, and iPod users won't buy any non-iTMS music because of RDF so they won't have any problems. So Apple benefits. But who's ultimately responsible to ensure that Fairplay works? Apple is. If the DRM is broken, who do the labels hold responsible to fix it, even if it involves a third-party store or player? Apple. If the DRM causes troubles with other players/jukeboxes, who's brand is tarnished? Apple. (In the same way that Microsoft is tarnished when Windows doesn't work right on all those different PCs.) And when even iPods don't work right with songs from other stores, who will those users look to to fix it? Maybe 50% Apple, maybe 50% other stores. When people get tired of fingerpointing as to who should fix it, what will they do? Use MP3s instead (CDs or pirated).

That's the gist of Apple's comment. It's the exact same motivation that drove the Real comments. Which is, don't muck with my integrated system - when you break "just works", the user will walk. Got it?

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jimothy said:

member since 04 Jun 2004 with 611 posts, unranked, send him a message or view his profile

Bryan wrote:
I am not sure why you think French folks and their advisors (be they French or non-French) aren't allowed to speak English

Wouldn't surprise me a bit if there was a French launch against that!

Guest wrote:
The contracts are written whereby Apple is legally liable if the DRM is broken on the songs it sells (and same for all the other stores except those that sell non-DRMed music like emusic.)

I'd be surprised if Apple (or any other online music retailer) would ever accept such terms, especially when you consider that Steve Jobs himself admitted that no DRM can be foolproof. And the liability to Apple (et al) would be huge, because the record labels claim billions of dollars are lost to piracy (the accuracy of that number is another issue). I find it hard to believe that Apple would ever agree to terms that put them on the hook should an iTunes-purchased song wind up on a peer-to-peer network, for instance.

Apple has a motive for keeping the songs they sell protected as well as possible, without such a clause in the contract. Should the song files purchased from iTMS be widely pirated, the labels would not renew their contracts with Apple, stop releasing new songs to iTMS, and, if the contract or lawsuits allowed, pull existing songs from the store.

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A guest said: (hide)

Has it not been mentioned yet that you can still play Apple DRM music on a 3rd party device? iTunes will let you burn an audio CD (NO DRM) which can be imported back into iTunes or other player program as MP3 (NO DRM), then drag and drop into your crappy RCA Lyra Viola problem solved. I really dont see what all this fuss is about!

I dont see how Apples Fairplay is broken, it works! I can play fairplay music on my iPod and within iTunes and not on another version of iTunes not associated with my account, this is what Fairplay was designed to do, Apple could care less if their iTMS purchases play on a 3rd party vendor player, they do allow (although limited) burning to red-book CD, and this is the practice I use to burn MP3 cd's to play in my vehicles.

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A guest said: (hide)

I believe Apple does have a liability, but possibly limited to fixing the problem. Why else would Apple have put out fixes to Johansen's and Real's hacks so quickly after they broke into it? Those fixes came faster than some security fixes.

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A guest said: (hide)

You know something is bad if you need to jump through hoops in order to get to "normal". DRM is not a good thing. And btw this law isn't either. For the CD burning guy: this law is one step closer to making that illegal. Already this law makes copying your DVD for backup purposes illegal.

But I like the idea of not being tied to this or that gadget. Jobs' quote is telling, and saying "yeah, but he MEANT CD's" as if that makes it less true for DRM crippled stuff, well, I don't know, lame?

With all respect for Jobs and his iTunes only approach, in the end it's not ideal. Meaning: the iTunes content can't be the answer to everybody's taste, or else they should really try and sell everything. If you're a mainstream kind of person, iTunes is incredible. If you're not, um, it's nice. For instance, if you're into Jazz, you'll find a good and broad selection of some good musicians and ensembles. But it WON'T match a speciality shop's selection. See? Same goes for every genre. Hurray for iTunes, but I think ultimately the supermarket approach can't satisfy real music lovers (not talking about bitrate which will get better I trust).

And for the "user experience" argument: do you really think that for example amazonmusic (why not?) can't match iTunes in usability? Anyway, bad experience in one shop means no more buying in that shop. Apple's damage: minimal. Shop's damage: 100% Bad for Apple, iTunes, the iPod? Maybe a few years back, but now it's not that fragile ecosystem, now it's the only game in town.

Cheers!

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tbone1 said:

member since 13 Jul 2001 with 3980 posts, TMO Staff, send him a message or view his profile

jimothy wrote:
Bryan wrote:
I am not sure why you think French folks and their advisors (be they French or non-French) aren't allowed to speak English

Wouldn't surprise me a bit if there was a French launch against that!

Well, they do have a government agency to prevent the French language from being polluted by icky foreign words, particularly those from English. Of course, if they were serious about preventing pollution, they might use soap once in a while. Seriously, have you ever had to fly over the Atlantic next to a Frenchman? If the US forced it upon Afghani and Iraqi prisoners, George Bush would be denounced by the Chinese government and Fidel Castro for crimes against humanity.

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Websnap said:

member since 17 Jun 2005 with 75 posts, unranked, send him a message or view his profile

I really don't see how this law promotes piracy, if anything it promotes flexibility. DRM protection isn't being eradicated just shared, so the content providers shouldn't have any problems. The laws preventing or deterring DRM breaking have been beefed up so the Online Store Owners should be fine. And the flexibility of Digital music ownership seems to me to take the worry of commitment to one player/platform/file type that would hamper anyone still leery of digital purchases. Now, feelings about DRM aside and with all these arguments taken into consideration, the idea that online music stores will pull out of france en mass doesn't seem to hold water, as it seems to either benefit maintain status quo for all involved. In fact, only people that would seem to have a problem with this is someone relying on player/store propriety and I think that is why Apple and only Apple has spoke up (exept for the US Gov., but really, who listens to them anyways… [ducks and covers]). Everyone knows apple doesn't make money on the iTMS, but on connecting these sales to iPods. I can see how us loyal mac fans can be a little worried, but for us it's not about anything other wanting apple to succeed. But on the grander scheme of things, this is a good thing.

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A guest said: (hide)

Websnap,

Look at it this way: All the other manufacturers already have a screwed up system of interoperability whereby they have to make their players work with multiple stores and jukeboxes, and or they have to make their stores work with multiple players and jukeboxes. Apple does not have this problem today.

Forcing Apple to allow someone else to implement Fairplay on either a store, jukebox, or player, now puts Apple into the same screwed up system of interoperability. That's why only Apple has complained. (Sony could complain too but they're still in such a poor spot right now over the CD DRM/malware fiasco that they'd be better off staying quiet.)

Believing that Apple's out for lock-in makes little sense. The iPod and even iTMS would still dominate if there was no DRM.

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