Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:23 pm

Hey guest, Microsoft built its gigantic market share in operating systems by not being Apple. It's a time tested stratergy.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:20 pm

I don't understand, Guest. You mean Microsoft doesn't sell software? What is this license thing you talk about? Enlighten us please.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:49 pm

	Bosco wrote:
	I don't understand, Guest. You mean Microsoft doesn't sell software? What is this license thing you talk about? Enlighten us please.

When you buy Windows, you don't BUY Windows, you buy yourself the right to install and use it on your computer.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:09 pm

When you buy Windows, you don't BUY Windows, you buy yourself the right to install and use it on your computer.

Wait. So if Microsoft is so successful with this, why don't other software companies do this? Do they have a business model patent? I'm really glad Apple doesn't do this though. It is very important to me to own my stuff. You know that phrase "renters are scum"? No kidding.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:19 pm

	Bosco wrote:
	When you buy Windows, you don't BUY Windows, you buy yourself the right to install and use it on your computer. Wait. So if Microsoft is so successful with this, why don't other software companies do this? Do they have a business model patent? I'm really glad Apple doesn't do this though. It is very important to me to own my stuff. You know that phrase "renters are scum"? No kidding.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:45 pm

Biff, I do performance art, not Family Guy gags. You know how most 12 year olds don't like the taste of coffee? I'm sorry, of course you do. It's the same with humor. Life experience makes the subtle much more entertaining. But I'll try to add an occasional fart joke so you can feel included.

Macinnerd, yeah, you've figured it out. It is always funny to stir up the tinfoil hat crowd, whatever their pet conspiracy. Especially funny when they can't shoot you!

Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:53 pm

I checked one out.

Yes, it is bigger. Not so much as say a scientific calculator, but noticeably bigger than an iPod. I could not heft it because Best Buy had it fixed to a display.

The music quality was good. I am not an audiophile with a discerning ear, and those folks will probably have a different opinion, but it was good enough for me. Best Buy did not have any headphone or ear buds attached so I used my Sony ear buds. In fact they had the mini plug from an iPod dock connector plugged into the Zune with the dock connecter onto the iPod, some sales training is in order.

The controller took a bit getting used to after using an iPod scroll wheel, but I learned it fast enough.

Now this I don't like, but I guess they had no option, or they couldn't figure out an alternative. You navigate the menus with the screen in portrait mode, buy you need to rotate it 90Ñ” to landscape mode in order to view photos and video. At this point the control points sort of also rotates 90Ñ”; You click up and down to navigate a menu to chose photos, but then after you turn it to view photos click right or left to go through an album.

The photo quality is okay. I do not think that it is as good as, or as bright as, those on an iPod. The display would not let you physically turn the Zune, you had to move your head around. To be fair I would need to see a side by side comparison of the same photo on an iPod and Zune before making a firm opinion.

The video was okay, but I did not get to check out for more than a few seconds because the battery ran down and the Zune auto shut off. They had a cable plugged in, but it would not play off of the USB bus or whatever it is they have hidden below the display. I asked the saleskid, and he said it needs to be plugged into a computer in to play and charge it concurrently. They did not yet have the standalone AC charger, the Zune ships with just a USB charger/sync cable. I didn't get the feel that the salesman knew much about the Zune other than "It is nice", again some training is probably in order.

Now a lot of folks crap on the brown color, but I liked it, softer than my iPod's snow color. They also had a black model, which was more charcoal than black, it too did not look bad. Both have a chrome bezel around the screen.

I wish I could have tried it more before the battery ran down. I guess I will head to the nearest MicroSoft brick and mortar store and see if they have a better display

Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:59 pm

	Guest wrote:
	I think Apple will come out with a Zune Killer really soon!

Yeah, like 4 years ago... is that soon enough?

Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:11 pm

Edison Carter wrote:

I checked one out. Now a lot of folks crap on the brown color, but I liked it, softer than my iPod's snow color. They also had a black model, which was more charcoal than black, it too did not look bad. Both have a chrome bezel around the screen. I wish I could have tried it more before the battery ran down. I guess I will head to the nearest MicroSoft brick and mortar store and see if they have a better display

Edison,

I agree with much of what you said. I tried it out at Target yesterday and they had the many of the same problems. The display, which the store people said came from MSFT, doens't allow you to do much with the Zune. It doesn't let you get a good feel for it because you can't pick it up and you can't rotate it.

The "clickwheel" is a real fakeout. The buttons are responsive so I think they should have left it without the fake wheel.

They only had one real Zune on display. The other was a mockup. If you wanted to try the wifi feature, you were sol. Rather silly when this is one of your differentiating selling points.

I liked the colors and thought the brown also looked ok.

Battery was an issue when I first arrived as well. With the store person, got it up and running.

Sound was ok but one of the speakers on display wasn't working.

I have heard since that Zune is not presently supported in Vista. I was wondering if that was going to be a problem.

No support for podcasts and books as well as macs.

My overall impression is that Zune is an ok player but to really evaluate it totally, you really need to be able to plug it into your own computer and see how it works with your system. (If MSFT really wanted to sell these, I think they should have put a computer with Zune software with each display for people to play around with-that is if they were confident that they had something special). For me, iTunes ease of use is what really helps sell the iPod. If Zune software has issues, makes it another reason not to get it. My opinion is that the Zune won't be that appealing to many, especially the way it is presently being displayed. If there was anything special about it, you really couldn't tell the way they have it all locked up. Maybe that is MSFT's strategy . I see this mainly as a player for Apple and iPod haters this holiday season. But even for them, they will need to get it to work on their machines. If it doesn't, it will be put away in a drawer somewhere and will be of value at the antiques roadshow about a hundred years from now . JMO though.

Neal

Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:41 pm

	Bosco wrote:
	Biff, I do performance art, not Family Guy gags. You know how most 12 year olds don't like the taste of coffee? I'm sorry, of course you do. It's the same with humor. Life experience makes the subtle much more entertaining. But I'll try to add an occasional fart joke so you can feel included.

Woah I got an awesome idea, dude! Like they could have these ads with a guy playing iPod and a guy playing brown Zune and they are like totally like the Mac and PC guy ads and like the brown Zune could like fart and stuff! Haha!

Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:07 pm

	Bosco wrote:
	When you buy Windows, you don't BUY Windows, you buy yourself the right to install and use it on your computer. Wait. So if Microsoft is so successful with this, why don't other software companies do this? Do they have a business model patent? I'm really glad Apple doesn't do this though. It is very important to me to own my stuff. You know that phrase "renters are scum"? No kidding.

I guess I see the joke, but, as you well know, there is a world of difference between the way Microsoft handles licenses and the way Apple does. With Microsoft products (e.g., Windows, Office), to be "legal," you need serial numbers and, with Windows, you have to "authorize" the installation. If you have to reinstall the OS for some reason, you have to go through that process again. With Vista, if I understand correctly, it will be "worse." The OS will be crippled until it is authorized and, if you're on a network and try to use two PCs with the same Windows serial number (not a multiple license), it will shut down.

Apple, on the other hand, does not use serial numbers or registration codes for OS X, the iLife applications, or AppleWorks. It does use serial numbers for iWork and FileMaker Pro (owned by Apple), though it's possible to run two copies with the same serial number on a network. (That was not always true for FileMaker Pro--at one time, it would shut down if it detected another copy with the same serial number on a network.) I don't know about the "pro" applications like Final Cut or Apeture.

Thus, it's easy to move OS X and the Apple applications I'm familiar with from one computer to another or even to (not so legally) install them on multiple computers. Apple does sell a "family package" of OS X, but one does not need the family pack to install OS X on, say, an iMac and a laptop. The only time I've needed to "authorize" a Mac for an Apple application was for the iTunes Store.

(For what it's worth, it was also pretty easy to move MS Office 2004/Mac from one Mac to another and I could run two copies with the same serial number on a network. This might have as much to do with how OS X works with networks as it does with the applications. The "trouble" I had with FileMaker Pro in the past was with an OS 9 version.)

Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:20 pm

For the media chatter about the Zune being an "alternative" to the iPod, it sure has had a lame release. They could have at least given some to the glitterati and have them seen with it on talk shows.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:00 am

	Anonymous wrote:
	mshoaf wrote: I still don't get why people would want FM Radio in their digital music player. The whole reason I HAVE an iPod is so I don't have to listen to the radio!!!! Just one word for you, son--baseball. Okay, and NPR. That's about it for radio, otherwise it's a total wasteland..

In that case, get the Apple iPod Radio Remote or the Griffin iFM. Then, you'll have a remote control AND a FM radio. Now, what I would like would be an add-on AM radio, to listen to talk radio.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:44 am

Just to clarify, Apple's Pro and Pro-sumer (Final Cut Express) apps are serialized and network aware, as is OS X Server. You can install OS X Server on more than one machine with the same serial number, but you can't do any of the really cool network stuff like Open Directory binding (between servers) for network services without individual serial numbers for each server.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:52 pm

	Bosco wrote:
	Hey guest, Microsoft built its gigantic market share in operating systems by not being Apple. It's a time tested stratergy.

I think there stratagy is failing them now.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:38 pm

I walked by Best Buy early this morning when I was on my cardio-vascular walk. There were a number of tents set up and others just bundled up against the chill. The line went around the back of the building and I didn't investigate further, but there must have 50 or more people there.

From what I have read thus far, the Zune not yet selling well. Maybe next weekend when the Christmas shopping season starts in earnest, starts most every place for that matter.

Anonymous wrote:

Edison Carter wrote: gslusher wrote: I heard on CNN Radio this evening that stores like Wal-Mart and Best Buy are bracing for an onslaught as people line up with chairs, sleeping bags, and even tents, to be first in line at the stores tomorrow. The reason: the launch of the Sony PlayStation 3. Contrast that with the launch of the Zune. When I was Best Buy this afternoon they had a sign telling gamers where to queue up, there was no one there at that time. This (Wednesday) evening I passed by Best Buy and there were a few dozen people lined up. That's actually an endorsement of how popular the Playstation 3 is, since its not going on sale 'till midnight Thursday at earliest. If you saw people standing in line Wednesday evening, then they're willing to wait in line over 24 hours to get one, which is pretty devoted.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:58 pm

The MSN coffee maker with built weather forecast feature. I would give it four stars if it had an FM tuner so it could also give me traffic reports. http://www.yourgrindredefined.com

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:15 pm

vasic wrote:

On Amazon's bestsellers in electronics, Zune is a very respectable no. 11; however, half of those ahead of it are various flavours of iPod. (Nos. 2,3,4,7 and 9). Top seller is a Canon digital camera, and there is a Sandisk MP3 player in the top 10 - still beating out the newly released Zune. This reminds me very much of Windows CE. If it plays out like Windows CE (takes five years to get it reasonably right), Zune is as good as dead. Whereas, Palm was clueless and allowed MS to continue (very, very slowly) to improve its platform, without Palm improving (meaningfully) its own, Apple is no Palm, and Tungsten (or Treo) is no iPod.

An update, as Amazon updates the list often:

- Canon cameras 1, 7, 12, 15, 17, 20, 22, 23

- iPods 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 11, 24

- Koss in-ear headphones 6

- SanDisk MP3 player 8, 25

- Kingston Flash Drive 9

- Zune (black) 13

- Garmin GPS receiver 14, 18

- Linksys wireless router 16

- Sony Camera 19

- Canon inkjet cartridge 21

Notice that only one of the Zunes (black) made it. It's interesting that neither white iPod made the list, either, and that the better-selling SanDisk player is black. Black is the top color. (The pink and silver Nanos also made the list. The Product (RED) did not, yet.)

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:38 pm

But we are only talking about a few centimetres worth of screen, this is hardly going to cause massive pixillation.

Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:51 pm

	Edison Carter wrote:
	When I was Best Buy this afternoon they had a sign telling gamers where to queue up, there was no one there at that time. This evening I passed by Best Buy and there were a few dozen people lined up.

There were people camped out for a couple of days at one BestBuy I went to. My son was one of them, getting paid $100 to hold a place in line (personally, I think he got ripped off). I wouldn't have gone over there, but had to pick him up a prescription — if I knew I'd have been stuck with this chore, I would have brought cameras.

Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:24 pm

One indication of the lack of enthusiasm for the Zune: Our local Fry's Electronics takes out a huge, eight-page, full-size ad in the local paper every Friday. Not one mention of the Zune, anywhere! Lots of Apple and iPod stuff, as well as some Sandisk players, but no Zune to be seen.

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:59 am

Anonymous wrote:

The zune is not bad, half of what everyone says bad probably isn't true when they think they know the economics of all this, if you are this smart go to college and get a degree in economics. The Zune does what it has to, plays music and vids ok, picture isn't that bad, neither is the interface. Click wheel is nice but not essential. The zune is probably not as polished as the ipod but its a very good player and a nice alternative if your sick of seeing the bland ipod all the time

Now, that's a great example of "damning with faint praise." As Tom Peters often said, any product that is "good enough" is destined for the scrap heap. Notice all the wishy-washy words: "not bad," "ok," "isn't that bad," "not as polished," etc. (Not to mention the spelling and grammatical errors.)

In order to sell well, the Zune would have to have some attraction that places it above/beyond the iPod. The iPod has had five years to mature and take over the music player market.

- Price? Nope. It costs the same as the 30 GB iPod. Plus, the iPods outsell many MP3 players that are cheaper,

- Features?

-- FM tuner? Lots of MP3 players have it--and the iPods outsell them all.

-- WiFi sharing? It's severely lamed--it puts DRM even on music you've created, yourself. (A side note: I'll bet that parents aren't too thrilled about the "squirting" idea, especially if they have younger kids.)

-- Larger screen? Well, it is physically larger, but with the same number of pixels. The screen is in portrait mode in normal use, which means that there are only 240 pixels across, vs 320 for the iPod. That makes the text harder to read. Also, to watch a video, you have to turn the Zune sideways and the faux clickwheel controls turn, also. That SEEMS like a good idea--until you use it.

-- Interoperability? The Zune cannot play iTunes Store songs, of course, but it also CANNOT play Microsoft's "Play For Sure" songs sold by other online services. The iPod syncs with OS X and Windows (older iPods also sync with OS 9.2); the Zune only syncs with particular versions of Windows XP and Vista. iTunes supports versions of Windows (e.g., Windows 2000, some versions of Windows Media Center) that the Zune software does NOT support.

-- Formats? The Zune cannot handle some formats the iPods can, including (if you believe this!), .bmp photos--that's Microsoft's OWN standard!

-- Podcasts? You cannot subscribe to podcasts through the Zune software. You'll have to use another RSS or PodCatcher software. (The Zune software will load them on the Zune if they're downloaded to a specified folder.) Also, podcasts appear like a song, rather than in a separate list. The Zune cannot handle "enhanced" podcasts that put pictures where the album art goes. (TMO's own podcasts often use that feature.)

-- Audiobooks? The Zune cannot (yet) play audiobooks from Audible, though many other players can. It can play .mp3 audiobooks, but, if I understand correctly, it cannot bookmark audiobooks. If you leave an audiobook to play a song, when you go back to the audiobook, you'll have to search for where you stopped. The iPod not only supports bookmarking but chapter divisions.

- Style? The iPod is "bland"? Give me a break. Ask any teen which is "bland," the iPod or the Zune. Remember that the Zune form is NOT a Microsoft design. It's a rebranded Toshiba player with a few things added. At least, this time, Microsoft had to pay the company it "borrowed" a design from.

- User interface? The Zune CAN be a bit easier to choose songs than the iPod, but try scrolling INSIDE a song, much less something like a podcast or audiobook. That's one place where the clickwheel works much better. Same with scrolling rapidly through a list. The clickwheel lets you intuitively control the speed--the faster you move your finger, the bigger jumps it takes.

Two recent observations:

- I went to the local Costco outlet several times in the weeks before the holidays. At first, they had a display of Zunes (well, big, empty plastic blister packs, which the buyer takes to the cashier), right next to the iPods. The next time I went in--and, remember, this is just before Christmas, the Zune display was gone--not moved, gone. In its place were iTunes Gift Cards and more iPods. They also had a raft of iPod accessories, mainly speakers, radios, boomboxes, and the like. I was there, again, Dec 26: no Zunes, but lots of iPods and iTunes gift cards. No Zunes.

- Also on Dec 26, I went to a Best Buy store and an Office Depot. Both had the Zune. You can't handle the Zune on display--it's tied down tightly to the stand. (The Office Depot display had only a plastic, non-working display. The stand for a "real" Zune was empty.) At Best Buy, there was a small crowd around the iPods and iPod accessories, but no one was even looking at the Zune. The salesperson confirmed that very few people even bothered to check out the Zune.

The real proof, though, is in the sales. Remember that the Zune has a built-in distribution system (the X-box dealers). Yet, when it goes head-to-head with not only the iPods, but the mp3 players from SanDisk and Creative, it loses and loses badly. Check Amazon's hourly-updated consumer electronics bestseller list. After a VERY brief stint in the top 25, the Zune dropped precipitiously, getting as low as about #80. The black Zune (the only one to break the top 100 list) is at #57 at this moment. (One thing to remember: Amazon considers every color and size iPod to be a separate item. You can also tell that it's after Christmas, as the Nanos have dropped down quite a bit, along with most digital cameras.) A few items ahead of the Zune:

- iPod video (1, 8, 23)

- iPod Shuffle (2)

- iPod Nano (6, 31, 33, 48)

- iPod accessories (9, 20, 22, 24, 35, 38)

- Sansa music player (3, 11, 12, 54)

- Creative Zen player (13)

- Canon cameras (7, 15, 16, 28, 36, 37, 42, 47)

- Other cameras (14, 51)

- Garmin GPS (17, 18, 21, 25, 44)

- Logitech devices (29, 41, 46, 49, 50)

- Memory cards (5, 10, 53)

- USB thumb drives (4, 52)

and, to really drive home the point:

#30 - Ink tank for Canon printer

#45 - Spindle of 100 DVD-R disks

#56 - HDMI cable

(For what it's worth, that same ink tank has been ahead of the Zune every time I've checked over the past two weeks.)

That doesn't speak very well of the Zune's sales.